Vale a pena escutar o prof. Fouad Ajami

A acompanhar os acontecimentos no Egipto também via CNN. Em estúdio, têm o prof. Fouad Ajami, profundo conhecedor da história da região e amante confesso do país. Como sempre, o seu contributo à reflexão surge recheado de interessantes observações e chamadas de atenção.
Fica a transcrição do excerto, para ler na íntegra clicando no link abaixo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: And we have seen these crowds now for several hours, but the joy is not diminished, neither for them, nor for all of us watching around the world.

I'm joined by Professor Fouad Ajami, whose knowledge and love of Egypt, and knowledge of history and understanding of history, has shepherded our coverage through some of the most darkest hours of the last 18 days.

Professor, last night you said on my program -- you said, "The angels of the Arab world and the demons of the Arab world are locked in battle." It seems at this hour that the angels have won.

PROF. FOUAD AJAMI, JOHNS HOPKINS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: The angels have won, Anderson. And I think we have to perhaps -- since you have become what I call "evanbeled" (ph), a son of the land, since you've really dipped into the Nile and came back, and really became hooked on this story, we should say congratulations to you as well, congratulations to us all in a way who have been on the side of the story.

It just occurred to me watching this that this is it the kind of story you can watch on mute. You don't need analysts' words. You just need to listen to the Egyptians and watch the Egyptians.

This man, Hosni Mubarak, dared them, he defied them. He finally dared him, and then they answered his challenge and they have prevailed. It's an amazing moment for them, and an amazing moment for the Arab world, because let's remember, many, many Arabs had begun to question whether freedom was in the DNA of the Arabs.

Well, the news is out. Freedom is in the DNA of the Arabs.

COOPER: I should point out Fouad Ajami is professor at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. He's also at the Hoover Institution.

Mubarak and, I think, his vice president, were two men who came to believe, it seems to me, that they were Egypt. And it seems to me the message from these protestors all along from day one, and the message especially of the millions that we are seeing now, is that they are not Egypt, we are Egypt. These people are Egypt.

AJAMI: Yes.

COOPER: This is Egypt. This is it the future of Egypt. And this is what Egypt needs to be.

AJAMI: Well, Anderson, the truth of this country, in a way, the truth of Egypt, is that there's a fault line. There are people who have the memory of democratic politics. They remember when Egypt had a parliament. They remember when Egypt had actually prime ministers who stepped aside, and there was a circulation of power and an alternation of power.

These people, they have a memory of Egypt before the Free Officer regime of 1952. And then there are these Egyptians who came into their own, or who were born under the autocrats, the three autocrats, Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak. And then there were those who were born under the third of these autocrats, the worst of them.

The argument could be made that perhaps Hosni Mubarak is one of the worst rulers Egypt has had in a very long time. So, yes, I think the people wanted to retrieve their country from him, from his dynasty, and from the people around him, and from his cronies.

COOPER: There was a moment -- I never said this at the time, but there was a moment when I came to believe that these protestors were going to win. I wasn't sure, but I came to believe it.

AJAMI: Yes.

COOPER: The night that they were attacked by thousands of pro- Mubarak thugs and mobs, and they took corrugated steel barricades -- corrugated steel sheets from a nearby construction site, formed barricades, and all night long they manned the barricades. And in between charges from their attackers, they would bang metal pipes and sticks and rocks on those barricades, and it made this haunting sound, like a drumbeat. And it's a beat that's been used by warriors throughout the ages, but to me it was a message to the attackers, one that I heard all night long. And that message was, we are still strong, we are still brave, and you cannot defeat us.

Was there a moment that you felt that these guys are going to win?

AJAMI: Well, I don't know. To quote a friend and a great reporter, "Fear has been defeated." Fear was defeated. And, in fact, it was always this roller-coaster of a ride.

It was always just kind of a guess. Will the regime crack down? Will the people lose their heart? Will they be scared again?

And I must admit I decided early on -- and I think you bear witness to this -- that I wouldn't run ahead of the story. We would just see it on day to day. And we held our hearts, if you will, to use an Arabic metaphor, in our hands as we watched these people stand up to the state that had terrified them, bullied them, exploited them, scared them, took away from them their sense of respect, and then they regained their self-respect and they regained their spirit.

And they were reminded of the love of Egypt, that this is their country. And if they have to rescue it, they have to go out and do it on their own.

They couldn't wait for anyone. No one was coming to the rescue of the Egyptians. No one was coming to tell Mubarak that it's time to call off this despotism.

So they did it the way it should be done. They did it on their own.

COOPER: And now do you still fear looking too far ahead to this, or do you think -- do you have confidence that the military is in place, that the next few steps are clearer? Or is it not clear?

AJAMI: Well, you know, when we spoke last night, it seems like just an eternity -- many, many, many months away -- I told you I don't like military communiques, number one. They remind me of all the wreck that befell the Arabs, the soldiers, under tanks, coming and conquering power, breaking down ancient and proud societies, whether in Iraq or Syria or Egypt or Libya.

So I don't like the military in politics, but we have to take the world as it comes. And if the military is the transitional force that will take the Egyptians from this sordid autocracy, the sordid autocracy of Mubarak, the house of Mubarak to a democratic possibility, fine. So be it.

I'm encouraged by one thing. I'm encouraged by this -- that the military have watched the spectacle and they have seen the courage of the Egyptians, the rebelliousness of the Egyptians, the patriotism of the Egyptians, and that the military will simply, when the time comes, will step out of the way.

They know the dilemmas of Egypt. They're huge, titanic economic, cultural, political dilemmas. And I don't think the military is eager to claim the power for itself.

COOPER: I found it telling -- and I may have been wrong of who exactly they were talking to -- but when we did hear from the military spokesman a short time ago, he said he was saluting not just Mubarak, but also the martyrs. And I assumed he was talking about the martyrs that the Egyptians -- which is what Egyptians are calling the people who have died in the last 18 days, the people whose pictures right now are being carried in that square.

The fact that the head of the military would talk about those who had been killed in this, that was something we never heard from Mubarak and from Suleiman.

AJAMI: Exactly. Mubarak, at the end, made a kind of -- he barely made a mention of the people who fell in this democratic struggle. But you're exactly right, when the head of the armed forces or a military commander, one of the generals, when he speaks of the people who perished in this noble struggle as martyrs, it tells us that the military read this protest, they understand the depth of this protest, and they have respect for the kind of spectacle that we have been watching in the last 18 or 19 days.

COOPER: And that same fear has been defeated. There's no turning back. It's something I heard repeatedly, protesters saying in one form or another in that square.

It started off I think 18 days as a hope. It became a belief and a conviction. And I think tonight it is a fact. Fear has been defeated and there is no turning back.

Let's toss it to Wolf now in Washington -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Anderson, thanks. And thanks to Fouad as well. I just want to repeat what that military officer said on Egyptian television. He said, "The Higher Military Council is expressing all of its appreciation for the life of the martyrs, those who have sacrificed their lives for the freedom and security of their nations, and for all the people of our nation. And God be in their help, peace be upon you." 

Posted by por AMC on 19:46. Filed under coisas que dão que pensar, ESPUMAS, essa coisa de viver em sociedade, gente que vale a pena, uma janela para o mundo . You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Feel free to leave a response